SPEAKER_00 0:00

All these scientists that have won Nobel Prizes, for example, at that point of time, whatever they started seeing was against some of the religious sentiments as well. Some were told, don't talk like this. This is against all the scriptures that were written. And they said, Well, it isn't about that. This is how I'm seeing the world. And they challenged the system, they challenged the whole society. And they fought for their lives as well. But then with their view, the systems changed, the view changed, the culture changed, the way we see the time, space, and all changed completely. The way we see gravity changed when Einstein talked about acceleration. Whenever I see movies or series on Netflix, and it's about those FBI and CIA stuff where there is one person who's trying to save the world from the whole groups outside. And when they do it, they realize the system is so poor that if they follow the system, they are definitely doomed. And that one person cannot save. So they have to work outside the system. And the moment they go outside the system, the system in itself, whom they are trying to protect becomes their enemy. So imagine they are trying to protect the system not only by the external threat, by themselves.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Doing a lot of work.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

So it's it's fun to work around, work with people around the issues that they are going through. So it's it's always good.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

I've been I've been sl I've been working like an Egyptian slave for the last month. Hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Oh, what's that?

SPEAKER_02 1:53

I've been I've been working on um designing my platform, getting it right, like getting the the the engine underneath the process right, keep it make make sure the wiring is wired properly. It's been a lot of work. I've been in I've been vibe coding my ass off, so to speak. So are you doing the editing by yourself or so were you to the podcast or my my my platform?

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Platform.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Initially I had a developer, one of my a guy from Bangladesh. It's pretty good. Uh, because his his his cousin is the one that helps me with um some of the marketing stuff, and his his cousin's wife helped me with some of like editing the podcast. So it was like, yeah, my my my my cousin is uh is an engineer when it comes to uh tech stuff. So I was like, okay, cool. So he was helping me put put the site together and all that, and then I got locked into Codex and Cloud Code, so I have them wired up into my system, I got them API into my system, so I've been using them to build it out, and it's been a lot of progress. It's been some good movement, some good traction.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

That's really good. I've been following quite a lot of stuff on your YouTube, so that's really good.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Oh, yeah, yeah. So I'm finally getting all the pieces wrapped into the right place and the right kind of people, and just because I like to learn stuff myself. So I'm like, I want to learn about the Vine code, all that stuff. So, like, like I'm not a software developer, but I am now.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

I think we all learn at some point in our life something new.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what I've been working on. It's been a lot of hard work, but it's getting there.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Well, tell me about your day today. How how was your day today? What did you do?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Today, so today I started off. I had a client. Normally, I don't I don't do clients before noon, but I had one at 10 o'clock. And then after that, I jumped onto my Toastmaster because I do a Toastmaster every Friday. I'm the president of my Toastmaster Club, it's an online club. So I I went through that. We was we meet at 2 o'clock my time, 12 o'clock, because they're in Colorado. So that's where I used to hang out when I joined the club. So I had that, then I had another client at three something. So I've been sitting on my desk like working. So we have a couple of book projects I'm working on, so I keep meeting those folks. But the best one was my Toastmaster Club, because it was this every Friday, it's the it's the place I hang out at, and it's been a good conversation with those folks. Get see them all share their stories.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Oh, that's very good. It's it's actually you can spend time not spend invest time in something that you actually love to. I know you just woke up, so generally I wake up at four because then um I do my volunteer work from like rotary and my personal stuff from four o'clock till seven. And then I um get ready to go to office and then I come back and then I do university stuff where I'm uh supervising PhD candidates. So it's just today because it's Saturday and because I was supposed to speak with you, I said maybe I will not get up at four, I'll get up at six.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Guess to mostly guess to mostly. Wait, wait, why why four o'clock? That's a error. That's early, man. You you must be in the military, man.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Well, my grandpa was well, the thing was when my parents came here in 2023, they were going through a lot of uh physical challenges because in 1993 they met with an accident and after that they haven't really walked properly. I mean they can they can walk, but it's just not the way we are as mobile. So we got them here and then my we had to um get my father's surgery done, and that sort of spiraled out. So we started getting around just under a dozen surgeries, including both of them, over the period of one and a half years. So there was a time when I had to go when I my mind gets up at 1.30 in the morning and then 3.30 in the morning just to check up on them, it's everything's okay. And we did it like for two and a half years, like that. So my mind got settled in in a manner that once they left, I still got up at 1.30 and 3:30. And so it took me a while, like six months, to make myself rewire again to not get up twice or thrice a night to check up on them because they're not there in the house. And um, so I settled for 4 a.m. So there is no uh there is no science in my mind behind me getting up at 4 a.m. It's not something that I'm disciplined, I think. It's just it has become a discipline because that's uh I negotiated with myself that maybe I won't do it twice a night, but I'll get up early. So it just wired in a like this now. So even if it's no alarm clock, I'll get up at four o'clock. So it's easier, I can get my volunteer stuff done in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Alison, in the morning, early morning. You when you say four o'clock, you remind me because I was in the military for 22 years and it was four between four and five o'clock. That's like my wake up time for a long time. And I I first thought I was a morning person until after I retired, I was like, Oh, I'm not really a morning person, I'm a late night person.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

I used to tell my MBA students in the class, and I said, Who is a night owl? Uh because although it's like um I shouldn't say night owl because when when we talk about owl, we do associate with night in the manner. And they said, Yeah, we are, we are. And then you said, What what time do you study? And I said, Ah, around midnight. And um, I used to give all my numbers, uh, my numbers to every single student I have taught in university because um of the time difference as well, but because also some people are studying at midnight and they open their textbooks and they open their laptops and start studying and they get stuck. And now because they're night person, they get restless because they want the answers then and there, because their mind is into learning that time. So I said, Call me. So they used to call me at, you know, I told you in the first podcast, they called me around 12:30, 1 o'clock for any questions and answers. And I said, You guys really are night outs. They said, Yeah, our work, our mind works like crazy when it's like midnight. So I understand what you're trying to say.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Yeah, I I get most of my I just my quiet, peaceful thinking in the night, or when I get up in the morning, I get my my morning work, I can like walk around, I just sit there and think. So a lot of my writing is done in the morning or late at night. Yeah, so it works for me.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

It's funny actually, because um in full awareness, like, can't be fully aware, but in my awareness I've realized that when I get up at four o'clock sometimes, the only thing that I do is stare at my laptop. Just sitting there looking at my laptop. And is there something going on in my mind which I will not figure that time? But sometime during the day when I'm at work, those thoughts will start swirling back and it will connect to what I'm going through at work. Then I'm talking to different people, and then I jot down. And when I come back in the evening, that's where I start writing papers, or when I'm, you know, doing the university stuff with PhD candidates. And I think night it doesn't work like this for me. At night, I need to do sort of a clerical work. So if I'm writing some calculations or if I'm doing my expenses or all these things, night, not morning. So I've realized over the period of time this is how I think this is how I feel comfortable in my head. If somebody wants me to do some housework, I'm making some notes and all, night time. And morning time is just thinking without knowing what I'm thinking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Thinking time. So morning morning time is your thinking time. It is mine too. I try not to not put anybody in my calendar in the morning because I get to work out whatever ideas I've been turning on, like, oh no, I can get it clearer. If not, it's gonna get long and all over the place. But in the morning I can sharpen it, right? I can shrink it down. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

I think it made me realize from students' perspective, I think people who are morning morning people have a little bit edge over night owls, if I can say it like that. So for example, if an exam is at nine o'clock in the morning or ten o'clock in the morning, the morning students will get up at four o'clock and you know revise stuff. But the night owls have already studied, but because the morning exam is at nine, they cannot switch off. And they have to push themselves to the to the morning section, and then they feel terrible because that's not how their mind works. But because the exam is at nine o'clock, they need to. They think that they need to, otherwise they'll be left behind. So I think if from that perspective, I think the morning students have a little bit edge because it falls naturally, the revision time.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

That is interesting. Yeah. If you can schedule the test, the thing that somebody's gonna score you on, find out what time of day your brain works the best.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Yeah. I I think it really if we need to understand ourselves better, we need to understand what time of the day we are receptive towards other thoughts, what time of the day we really are struggling to figure it out, what we are trying to figure it out, and then if we can reverse it, then I think it will be much better. We'll become more receptive and we'll be becoming more aware of what do we want in this given time and space at this time.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

You know what? I think we should f we should we should call this knowing yourself. Yeah. Because no, yeah, it's perfect time. No knowing yourself requires to understand a little bit about your biology, your psychology, I mean, your spirituality, all of that stuff requires really deep knowing yourself. And if you don't, can you optimize for a system probably it's not aligned with your system?

SPEAKER_00 11:29

But it takes time to learn that how do we recognize if there is a system? So when you say that, for example, my in Indian culture we call grandparents to both sides, whether mom or dad's. Okay. So to differentiate, I will keep referring to this. My mom's side, grandpa, we call Nana. So I was he used to get up at three. He was a tennis player, a lawn tennis player. And uh he used to get up at three, everybody would be asleep, it's all dark outside, no matter whether it's summers or winters, it's all dark at three o'clock. And he gets up and he makes tea. I I was really fond of him, so I used to get up and just stay with him while he's making tea and he's telling me stories. I don't remember what stories they were. And then around four o'clock, um I will hold his finger and we will walk to the corner of the house, a little bit far. And then there was there was an old person sitting in front of the building selling bread, milk, butter. And um we will purchase that and the two but two types of milk some uh red packet and blue packet. And I think it's something to do with cream in it. And we used to pick that up and we used to come back home. By the time we come back home, it's 4 45, and um we start some of our uh my mom's uh sisters they get up because in summer vacation we all live together in that big house, and everybody else is all sleeping, and then our work is done, and then they will still they will go in the kitchen and they will start cooking, you know, stuff, the sandwiches and all that. And that would be around six o'clock, they'll finish. And then everybody will get up, and they will start eating food and all. So, without even knowing there was a system in place. Nobody knew this that there is a system in place, but their physiology worked like this. They knew they had when they get up at six o'clock, the everybody will be there, the food will be there. The ladies knew at that time when they were more working in the kitchen that we will be coming back around quarter to five. So we didn't have mobile phones there and then, and they will get up by themselves. Nobody is saying to anybody, hey, why didn't you go this? Why didn't you do this? The system is already in place, but we don't realize it. That's what I mean. We just think that ah, we have done our work, now it's your time to do your work. And if it is happening again and again, again, again, that becomes a system, you know. And then if you look at from a systems perspective, if you look at our systems view, we first need to recognize how this whatever we call system has come into effect. So, what was the time if we trace back if we are able to trace back and say, what led my nana to get up at 3? What led me to hold his finger and go and bring stuff? What led these ladies to think like, ah, they're gonna be back by quarter to five, so we should better get up at 4 30 so that by the time they get up, you know. Nobody told them, I mean, we didn't write it on paper like a job description that we'll be back by 4 45, you have to get up at 4 30, and then people sleeping need to get up at 6. It happens naturally. So that's what I meant when you say system. We need to recognize it. It isn't something that we write down, it naturally takes shape. And when it naturally takes shape, and I think that becomes a really deep, deeply ingrained system, and that continuously happen and happen and happen. So, whenever in organization there is a system in place which isn't working, it means it's not naturally ingrained yet. People still do things happen. Ah, sorry, I was just five minutes late. It's not about being five minutes late, it has disrupted the system now. So now the other people are gonna get disrupted as well. And because they are uh ensuring that they are working in time because of that system in place, now their work gets delayed. And now chaos is erupting. Now the system is getting broken. Now people are blaming the system, ah, it's not working. It isn't so much about the system not working, it's about people not realizing that there is a system, not systems within systems within systems. And from an organizational perspective. And when there are systems within systems within systems, like we all have different lives, we need to identify how our system fits into the other system, fits into the other system. That's another way of looking at one whole nucleus of systems. So it gets very minuscule level to understand that how individuals are responsible. Each individual is responsible for their system to work, but at the same time, it is not only their system that they are they are uh responsible for, they're also accountable for the other system that are dependent on their system. Now we are talking about within a system we have simple systems that are dependent on each other. So the question arises that is there a system? I don't know. There could be a system, but there are so many systems in it that they are dependent on each other, and if they fall in place, that probably becomes a system.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

This is so good because we're talking about your individual system, the family system, the social system, the community system, the government system, there's all a system. But I would say the sequence is the system, but you gotta understand what sequence was created that you've fallen into place with. So the sequence of your grandfather doing this thing, the next person get up doing their thing, the next person get up doing it. That's a sequence. When somebody don't do their part of the sequence, it looks disrupted.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

And why would why would someone not do it? And the only thing that comes in my mind is when they're thinking about getting their system in order, their system in order, and they think our system works independently to the system, and that's where the I think the chaos starts creeping in. Because if I'm only looking at tidying my place, and this is my place, and I don't care about the rest of the house, but I'm pretty sure the the stool that I have my legs are on right now are required elsewhere, otherwise, their place will not be tidied up. But I think this belongs here at my place. So whenever we are so self-centered, and I'm not saying it from very negative perspective, we are human beings, we are always in a flight and fight situation, so we are sort of a selfish people because we want to preserve our existence and we try to help others wherever we can, but that doesn't mean that we are not selfish people, individuals, you know, we are preserving our life here in some way, and then if that thinking creeps away, look, I don't this is what people used to say to me. They still say, I don't really want to disturb your whatever you do. I'm just worried about my stuff. And the other person said, Yes, but my work is dependent on your work. So you cannot create your own system. You can, but then you have to ensure that that system doesn't create issues for my system. So this this idea gets so so entangled in a manner that whenever we talk about system, I question, do we really know what that is? Or we just call it because we think we know what the term system entails.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

It's often invisible, just like the solar system. We like, okay, the moon, the earth, the planets rotate, but they rotate on the system. Can you see it? It's very hard to see. Is it there?

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Einstein saw it somewhere in his thought experimentation and said that we will never we will never reach to the end of the you know space or universe because it is expanding faster than the speed of light. And nothing is there that is faster than the speed of light, so it will never reach, you know, it will never cross that pathway. And he said that, oh, it's so challenging. Like uh in in um in science in our school, we were taught that solar system we have the sun that is stationary and all planets revolve around it, and then moon revolves around the planets and revolves as well. But then Einstein said, Yes, that's happening, but also the whole solar system is also moving in space. So there is a system in place of how the planets are revolving and rotating. There's a system in place of moon revolving, or sorry, rotating around Earth, and there's a whole solar system that is moving because if it isn't, then what will happen? I don't know. Nothing happened, it hasn't happened. So a science scientist would be able to tell you that. But there's a small system in place. In order for the whole solar system to work, we used to we are breathing here on Earth, is because all that small systems are working, but within a big system. Moon's not saying this, I'm tired today, I'm not gonna rotate around Earth. The whole earth will will die down, probably, we'll have that high tides and low tides if Moon decides to do something that it isn't supposed to do. So it's it's if we use that analogy in in the human interactions, it isn't so much about I don't want to do it. We need to identify that if we say I don't want to do it, which is okay, we need sometimes how it is going to affect the systems that are in place that are dependent on my work. And that's why this idea in the organization, when you take long leave, you ensure you distribute your work to others. But there is somebody to take over your work because if you don't, not because work is halted, because there is a system in place. And as you said, it's invisible, but we don't talk about system. And in order to get the organizational culture into the right place, and I know right is a very absurd word, I don't know what right is. Um, there are so many different nationalities working, it's about the system. And if the system could be understood, then people within the system can understand how they are not just responsible for their own work, they're also accountable to others. How their other was work is dependent on their work. So a system is an is it's a very magical view of how we work together in a society. Um if there is no system, there would be chaos. But then the question arises isn't it still chaos? And there are systems in place, otherwise, we won't be going through all this that's just going on around the world.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

Well, chaos is a system.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Well, chaos could be a system. So then the question is that is there anything without a system? Because whatever we do becomes a system. So it's not system uh uh driving what we do, it's us driving that creates a system. So that two Very different things. Asher and I start an organization and we create a system in place. This is the time the podcast will happen. This is the time the editing will happen. This is the time the platform will be there. This is the time we're gonna meet the clients. It's a system in place. And then there is a system where it tells us how to do it. So we go to some other organization or we go to some other society, start doing it, and they say, no, you can't do it at this time. This is the office time. You can't meet clients at this time. You need to change your podcast time, you need to change this time. So system dictates us. So we need to identify are we creating system or system is creating us? So to me it's very challenging because if I go and work in an organization, I want to ensure that I'm working with what I have, and in that good-hearted view of I want to give my best, I end up working against the system. So that's why when people say, Oh, you have to change, you have to change the culture, I said if you hire, and no disrespect to all consultants on the planet, but if a consultant who claims that they are knowledgeable enough to change the culture of an organization, and they haven't they have not worked, they have not worked in that particular organization, and they are hired from outside, and they they go in and they say, make these changes, make these changes, and the culture will change. I see that's a problematic stuff because in order to change the system, you have to be a part of the system first. You cannot change it from outside. Now I know some countries consultants had great knowledge and experience from past experiences, and they can bring in. I still think if you want to change the culture, come work for six months in this organization, and then you would realize how the system is working, or something that is not working has become a system. So now you need to identify: are you building a system or are you trying to understand cause and effect relationship? Whatever has been going on for some time has developed into a system, and people are struggling and they're trying to change, but they can't because they don't understand that it has already become a system. So, in order to change, you have to identify how to dismantle that system, and then automatically people will be able to change because whatever they want to do will dictate into a new system, but you have to dismantle, and that system could be mental blocks, that system could be centralized decision making, that system could be a view that there is nothing better but this, and then people get blamed. Ah, if you don't want to work, you can leave. Well, the new person who's gonna come in will do exactly the same as the old person because we are focused on people, not system.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

I am glad you're enjoying the podcast. Before we continue, I have a gift for you. Since 2016, I have read and listened to over 900 books so far, it's gonna be a thousand, and I organized them into a library and I handpick the top 100 books I recommend to my clients, my friends, and the people in my community. Books on storytelling, language, and personal growth, and building something from your own life. If you're watching this podcast and you're looking for your next great read, this library is your gift, it is free. Go to AsherAlbertWright.com and check out the 1000 book challenge. This is my gift to you. Now back to the conversation. So if you're familiar with with Seth Golden, I like his is his simplification of culture. And it says culture is simply how we do things around here, right? This is how we do things around here. When I when I heard that I was like, that's actually true because how I do things in my family becomes a culture. This is how we do. Like you can say the culture for your family, your your grandpa did this, whatever. It's a culture now because this is how we operate. If somebody comes in and trying to change it, you're disrupting the culture too. Because culture has the more capability to change the system, because culture requires a group of people operating on a certain set of rules. Like this is how we do things here. This is how you do things over there, but come over here, this is how we do things here. Now, if you don't like how we do things here, then you gotta change that, and that requires a lot of work.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

It's a good view that you take of culture. So if I put it back in the in the discussion we're having about system, are they synonymous? So for example, can I see a culture or do I need to experience a culture? Or can I just feel a view of the culture and I think that is the culture? So for example, when I came to Australia, people said, Oh, Australians are really good, they're laid back. And I said, Yeah, 26 million people, there's so many different states, and Australia is so big. How can we say that every single person is laid back? I'm pretty sure the fast life in Sydney is very different to not so fast life in Adelaide. You know, so this idea of generalization creeps in, and then we get a view of a culture that doesn't exist. So Hofstadter talked about national culture and he did a research on 117,000 IBM employees only. Of course, there were lots of different multicultural people there, but that was one organization in the 1980s, and his theories are still used in universities to understand that how individualism and collectivism work, that some people are some societies are high on individualism, that they are focused on achieving their own goal, and some systems, some societies are high on collectivism where they look for focusing on the group goals. But then if we look at China, which has 1. let's say 5 billion population, which is high on collectivism on his scale, and if we look at the United States, which is high on individualism, this scale, are we saying that every single Australian or the American is only dependent on their own goals and no other? So there is no collegiality? It's not gonna work like this. So when we start, and I'm pretty sure Hostada wasn't saying this, but when the theories came out, people started criticizing the theories as well in many different ways, and one of them is there's no national culture per se. There is a view of how you could feel being in Australia among Australians, but that doesn't make it a national culture to me. So this idea of knowing is problematic because we very quickly jump on uh convincing ourselves that whatever we are saying is right, and that's why we go and ask, Do you think do you think that's happening? Do you think that's happening? They won't ask, uh, could you tell me what is happening here? No, do you think that's happening? The word in itself is trying to get some affirmation from other person that whatever I'm seeing, you also seeing it. Because we want to affirm it, our thinking is right. Okay, now we make sense. So systems also work in the similar manner with respect to cut how culture works. We come in, we look at it, we think, yeah, that relates to what we have done in the past. Okay, so I'm pretty sure this is going to happen, and it may or may not happen. This view of generalization sometimes kills our creative view that we could have of a society we live in, of a culture we claim to see. All these um scientists that have won Nobel Prizes, for example, at that point of time, whatever they started seeing was against some of the religious sentiments as well. Some were told, don't talk like this. This is against all the scriptures that were written. And they said, Well, it isn't about that, this is how I'm seeing the world. And they challenged the system, they challenged the whole society, and they fought for their lives as well, but then with their view, the systems changed, the view changed, the culture changed, the way we see the time, space, and all changed completely. The way we see gravity changed when Einstein talked about acceleration. You know, I always think whenever I see movies or uh series on Netflix, and it's about those FBI and CIA stuff where there is one person who's trying to save the world from the whole groups outside, and when they do it, they realize the system is so poor that if they follow the system, they are definitely doomed, and that one person cannot save. So they have to work outside the system, and the moment they go outside the system, the system in itself, whom they are trying to protect becomes their enemy. So imagine they are trying to protect the system not only by the external threat by themselves. So whole whole episodes and whole series is dependent on one person trying to fight off the system they are protecting and also the external threats. At the end of the series, every time the system apologizes. Oh, okay, right, yeah, an audience cheer, and then probably still they are blamed for something else. So this idea of system in place that makes you rigid is in itself is a system. If a system is in place and it's flexible, that's another system. So again, the question arises when we talk about culture, when we talk about system, are we so fixated on what we think it is that we stop seeing what it could be? That is another system. So, no matter from that perspective, no matter what we do, we are continuously creating systems in place. When more than one person comes together and they start looking at viewing at stuff in one manner.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

It's it's interesting when you go back to some of these series, right? Because you know, like a lot of people like to protest, oh, the system is against me, or the system is this, the system is that. So I ask myself, do you know what the system is?

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

And oftentimes they don't know. They don't know, they just don't like somebody that's in charge of them or with the authority over them.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

How would we know? Like, for example, I read somewhere, I've not been to Saudi Arabia yet. So if you go in there and you're doing a business, uh, never extend your arm, I read, to somebody's wife. In their culture, in their system, you don't do that. But when you come from a society where handshaking is like a natural tendency, you know, you don't feel that there's anything wrong with it. It's a system in place. You meet somebody, you greet somebody. And then there is a different method of greeting. Some countries give a peck on cheeks, like probably in France. Some people hug, some people fold hands, some people die down. It's a culture, but there is a system in place. What is the system is when I meet, I greet. And then there is a different types of greeting in different countries. So there's a culture, but there is a system. So now the question is is the system universal? Because I'm pretty sure in any country that you go, anywhere, if you meet somebody, you're gonna greet somebody. This is the first thing you're gonna do. Hi, hello, this is my name. I I know it happens, like on the street, if somebody stops me, uh, could you please tell me the address? I'm not gonna say hi, how are you? My name is Anke. We're not gonna do that. We're gonna say, Okay, show me, and okay, see you later. And we go. So there is no such greeting there. But when we are formally meeting somebody, no matter what space is it, personal, professional, academic, military, there's some sort of greeting. So there is a system and there is a universal system in place, and then different cultures exist within that system. So is the culture part of a system? Is a system part of a culture? If a system is a part of a culture, then culture is also a part of a system. But then if that system is also a part of culture, so it sort of goes around and around and around and round, and they in over the period of this from Middle Ages to now, it has created something that nobody understands. Culture comes first, system comes first. Is culture driving the system or system driving the culture? Or they are together, it is so entangled now. So I'll give you another example. If you go to in Adelaide, there are different suburbs, and different suburbs are uh based on the socioeconomic groups, depending on how much you're earning, depending on what sort of livelihood you are, depending on how close you want to be the city city to live. And then now the system is changing. How? Everybody was concentrated in the city and the south because all the beaches are there, and then people were there on the hills because it's a nice environment. That's where the concentration of population was. Government started thinking, but nobody is going to north. Everybody is getting in south and city, it's getting really the traffic is getting really heavy. 15 minutes drive take 50 minutes drive now because you know people are there. So government started building, telling the builders we we want to build the houses in north. So once we build the houses in north, the cost is less. Because if the cost is high, people are not gonna move there. So cost is less. Why? Because nobody lives there. So people start, oh, we're gonna get a house for half of the price. Let's buy it. They buy the house. Now, as soon as they buy the house, other people start buying the house. One of the suburbs is created. Now the prices go up. Now the prices go up. It's no different from this happening, and that's let's go further. And let's go further. Let's that becomes a system. So that's how a city comes in place. That you have a concentration and you disperse the concentration by creating a system where people are people buying this idea of purchasing the houses at the places where it's deserted, nobody would want to go there. But there is a future now. So the culture starts happening that um very rich people will live in a certain society, certain parts of the city, and not so rich. When I talk about rich, it's only from the income they derive, nothing else. And then they live in a different parts of the city. Now the system is created, and then it's an age-old saying that comes in that when you go in to certain parts of the city, you will see that houses are made differently, cars are different, roads are different, you know, the people, the way they talk is different. Now it is coming into a culture. And when you go to a different suburbs, you will see that torn sofas are outside, the weeds are growing, the gates are open, the cars are parked on the grass. Now this they talk about a culture. So system was created so that the population disperses, the traffic eases, people don't have the we don't put too much pressure on the infrastructure, and that created the culture within a culture. So when you come back and say Australians are laid back, yes, I can feel it, I can experience it, but then there are different cultures within the culture. So there is a system, and now there are cultures within that system. We didn't focus on creating the culture, we created the system, culture got created in it, depending on how the system was. So if we are in an organization, if you want to create a culture, create a system first. Culture will develop by itself. What did you expect with this low socioeconomic group people who are struggling day to day gonna live with how the people in South lives who are very rich? No. They will have their own system working, but then all these systems will tell us what sort of culture is there in that suburb. In an organizational view, we need to identify what system we can create if we are looking for a culture to develop. We cannot really create a culture. Culture is developing, it's like it's born automatically from the systems we create in place. If you make it very rigid system, there is a culture. People are not going to tell you what to do, people are not going to share your thoughts with you, people are not gonna fail psychologically safe in it. People will think if they do something that is not written, they're gonna be kicked out of the company. That's a culture because the system is in place, and then you have a system in place where um the collegiality is such that everybody's you can go in batch in a room and you can say your stuff. That's a culture. We are not creating culture, we are creating systems. In my view, cultures are created from the type of the system we build.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

This episode is sponsored by Live Chinese Marketplace, the home for artists who own their stories and their business. Your book, your merch, your audience. One storefront, you keep 80%, you own your customer list, you build a relationship, real relationship with the readers. If that sounds like the way you want to run your business, visit lifechainingwisdom.com. Let's let's take this to the environment, then. Because I like this quote from Devil Goddard. I think it says, Environment dictate performance. So then when you think about the people that act a certain way, behave a certain way based on the environment. So if you create a system, naturally the environment is gonna have certain kind of qualities, features to it that would cause people to behave and act a certain way, and then they're gonna perform a certain way. So you're saying the neighborhood gets created, in the neighborhood, there's our rules, there are principles, there are there are laws in that neighborhood which are gonna dictate how you perform in the neighborhood. Now, if it says, Well, I'm not gonna follow the laws and rules, now you are operating outside of it, you you you your friction with it, so now it's gonna create problems for you. So then when you say environment dictate performance, if you take somebody of a certain environment, they perform differently, put them in a certain environment, they perform a certain way. So the environment has a lot of say into how you operate. That's why when you say culture is born, I'm like, yeah, because the environment has a say too.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

And if it's a good analogy when you talk about environment and performance, because if I say performance, it could depend on what I'm performing on. For example, I'm not a bodybuilder, and if I'm required to push heavy metal objects, I can't do it. I can try, but I'm physically not capable of doing that. So my performance is not gonna be there. No matter what environment you create, if you give me tasks that is outside my scope, no environment is going to help me perform. So it's the same thing that Einstein said. If you judge a fish by it by its ability to climb a tree, it will live for the rest of their life thinking it's stupid.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Wrong environment.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Yeah, or you're judging the fish. Fish is not supposed to climb the tree. So this this idea is the idea of performance in my head is so challenging to grasp. What are you judging people on performing? So when you have a KPI as an organization, key performance indicators, and you put everybody in the same, I hold my head and I say, Whoa, whoa, your system is so delusional. This is not only just going to eat culture, this is going to create chaos. Why is that? Because some things I'm not physically capable of. So the society comes in, the organization comes in, and they said, Okay, okay, this is your strength, this is what you're gonna work. You're gonna be an IT person, you're gonna be a creative arts person, you're gonna be a writer, you're gonna I said, Okay, now my strength, now you can judge my performance based on my key performance indicators. That's how organizations created different functions. Otherwise, during the age of early 2000, when uh Frederick Taylor helped two deans of Harvard Business uh School to create MBA program, it was such that Frederick Taylor's view was if you just continuously follow the process, you will always get the end result. Exactly in the same manner. Just follow it, you get it in the same manner. I don't need your creativity. We're not looking for it. Just follow what we are saying. Okay, we need bodies. And then there were Hawthorne experiments were done and it failed miserably. And then Mary Parker Follett came in and she said, Whoa, whoa, hold on. You can't just tell people to follow. They have their own view, they have their own temperament, they have their own functions, they have their own performance, they have their own strengths and weaknesses. We need to focus on people. And we moved from an era of classical perspective to humanistic perspective, and we realized that we are not robots, and then the whole study started happening that how individuals are important, how ideographic studies were important. So, coming back to this idea of performance and environment, you create the correct environment for me. Now judge me in that environment for my performance. Don't judge based on general view of it. Otherwise, I'm the fish. I need to be judged to my swimming capabilities in the water. Somebody else can be judged for their climbing uh abilities on the tree. We are two different people. We can still perform. Yeah, we still perform, but we are different. So a system put in place with respect to how we hire people in organizations, and they're hired in separate departments. System. But then within that is a system, but within that system there is culture. So within business operation, what's the culture? Within sales, what's the culture? Now, within one system, there are more than one culture. There's not one culture, it's not like ah, system is created, culture is created. No, no, no. Now, within that system, there are individual systems that will dictate what type of culture is going to be in there. So if you look at environment, the problem, not problem, the challenge is we have created a system. Now, within that system, there are sim individual systems, and within those individual systems, there's the cultures. How deep is this going to go? So, what is the environment? Is the environment the system? Is the environment those small microsystems? How are we going to judge the performance? Are we judging the performance on our organization or a small team or a business unit? So then this idea came in. That or this is the best business unit. Why? Because they perform better. Why? Because their people are like this. Why? Because their managers treat the people like this. So now that business unit becomes a case study for other business units in the same system. So we talk about system, cultures, environment, and performance. Who is leading who? Because if a blind man leads blind, I don't have a problem with it. Because some people have great senses. If your eyes close, there are still five, four more senses around in your body that is picking up ideas. So there's nothing wrong with blind leading blind. But then the saying developed that if you can't see anything, if you are misdirected, you're going to misdirect the whole population behind you. So if we create a system and we are misdirected, then everybody within that system will be misdirected. So now some people come in and say, This system isn't working. We're going to create our own system. So now they create our own system in a team and it works perfectly for them. Now the big system starts seeing, oh, what are they doing? Now I say, oh, this picks in. Oh, we're going to add to the system. Now the problem is when you start adding to the system because you want to make it big, there are other systems that are perfectly okay with it, whatever they are going through. The moment you start adding, looking at one system, the other system gets disturbed now. Because for them, this wasn't good. So it's only not about people, it's not only about products, it's not only about projects, it's not only about clients. It's it's trying to figure it out how these cultures are emerging by themselves within smaller microsystems within a big system. And you're not actually sitting there with a pen and paper and writing, this will be my system. It is happening based on how we are building things, how we are creating relationships. So I'm really not sure how how we can hold on to the system that we create, or we can even claim to create, because there are other peoples involved in it when we talk about systems.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

So you got me thinking about incident who is gonna orchestrate the harmony, or who is orchestrating the harmony? Because some something or someone gotta figure out how do you make this thing harmonize. That's the challenge now. The harmony piece.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

How how would we identify what harmony is?

SPEAKER_02 46:22

I would say it would be based on the chaos level. Like how much chaos is there? Determine harmony. If there's less chaos, maybe there's more harmony. If more chaos, maybe there's less harmony. That's my thinking.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

But my as in the last podcast we discussed, my challenge with more or less is I don't understand that. So for example, chaos is chaos. When we say less chaos, I don't know what that means. Or when we say more chaos, I don't know what that means. Because as we are emotional people, when we when we feel too emotional about something, like I'm saying too emotional about something, too, too, we emphasize. There is no too emotional, but I said I'm too emotional because I want to emphasize how emotional I feel. That too is only understood by me. No, nobody else can understand that. But if the other person starts understanding it in their own manner, that's where the chaos starts. Because those emphasis are only live for me because I'm identifying a situation in that manner. And in my head, I can say, oh, that's too chaotic. Why? Because I'm comparing it with something else. More or less doesn't exist, they are just comparison points. If there is no comparison, there will be no more no less. There will only be chaos. I have nothing to compare to. If this bottle exists of this height, of this color, and there is no other bottle I have seen, this is the only bottle. But as soon as you bring in another bottle, which is something similar to this, now I have a comparison point. Ah, this is this is really big. This is small. While if I remove this, this is not big or small, this is just a bottle. It's big. So this idea of comparison points is challenging in my head. So when we talk about chaos, and when we talk about this idea of how do we identify who's creating who, the moment we stop comparing, we can look at what we are doing. But our world doesn't work like this. I'm pretty sure some of the audience will say, Oh no, how can we see things without comparing? Yeah, of course, you can't see things without comparing because that's your reference point. But then in that manner, we are continuously shaping what we are seeing based on the shapes that we have seen. Where is the room for creativity? Where is the room for making this bottle in a different shape? There is no room because we continuously follow, and now another term creeps in tradition. There is a school of tradition people follow it. Don't break the tradition, our parents have always said when we were kids. Why? Now they equate tradition with culture. Now the tradition is also a part of the system. Now it's chaos. So now I was just dealing with system and culture. Now tradition also came in. What? That's what one of the reasons I think people have started not focusing on it anymore. It's brain draining, it's energy draining. Because there's so many things you talk in, so many things will creep in. How many things are you gonna fix? And why to fix if they are not broken? But how do we know if it's not broken? Because we are following a line of tradition. So is it broken? It's like blind led a blind once, and that became a tradition, and everybody follows it. So it will create issues religiously, it will create issues society-wise, it will create issues uh law, legal implications, ethical implications, everything will come in, and now we have that system in place. We hire lawyers to discuss this. And he changed these wordings so that it it can be read appropriately, or it could be held you know correct in the eyes of law. So it's challenging now. Tradition is also a system, culture is also a system, a system is also a system, but then culture is and traditions are within the system, but then cultures also have different systems, different traditions. So it's like a nested loop of all revolving around together like this. You cannot separate them. In my head, one thing is clear I need to create a system. But in order to create a system, I need a culture that allows me to create a system, and in order to have that culture that allows me to create a system, I need to identify what traditions have been followed, and within those traditions, what sort of environment is permitted or not permitted, and how the performance has been judged. And I always reach to that one point of square. What am I doing? No idea what I'm doing. Am I focusing on system or culture or tradition or environment or performance, or what am I doing? Which which comes first? And it's not a chicken and egg thing because that answer science have already told us that um eggs came in millions, 65 million, 365 million ago when dinosaurs were there, and chickens are the descendant of dinosaurs, and chicken came hatched later on. Darwin theory, evolution, for example. So chicken came after, egg came first. That is clear through scientific discoveries. So it isn't about chicken and egg, it's about us understanding that it is not so clear, and that is why organizations struggle, and that is why we struggle in our lives, because it is not clear, and whosoever tries to make it clear creates more chaos because I'm using more because chaos is already there. You're gonna aggravate that. So a person hired from external organization comes in and says, Ah, this culture isn't working, we're gonna change that. And people say, Hold on, your horses. This is how we have worked for hundreds of years. If you don't like it, get out. So, why did you hire me in the first place? To make me follow or to help you see what isn't working for you?

SPEAKER_02 52:02

So you got me thinking about the way which brings in the cycle of things, but the the inner loop, the outer loop. So if we're gonna see if if chaos got an inner loop or this thing we're talking about, the performance, the environment, the system, the culture, is it in is it on a loop? And is your is it is it inside of a loop, or if it's outside of a loop? I mean, I feel like they are looped together in a cycle, but we don't know which one comes first, which one comes second, or do we know that?

SPEAKER_00 52:32

It's it's a good view that I'm not good. I have I don't know what good is. It's a great analogy with respect to loop. But to me, loop has a loop is linear, and I've learned in my life that anything that is linear, it means we are missing something crucial. Nothing in this planet is linear. Something is happening somewhere else. So if well I shouldn't say nothing, like if I hit this bottle in my head, I'm sure I'm gonna get uh you know, cause and effect. But I think it's infinity. If you call a loop an infinity or infinity a loop, that's fine. It's infinity. There is no start, there is no end anymore. It's a part of a system that is so deeply ingrained and established that you cannot break the infinity. It keeps on going and going and going and going. You can create disruptions, but that will mean that you have to you have to run for your life as well sometimes. There was a time when people thought that there is an edge of earth and you will fall off. There was a system in place, and then only scientific discoveries could change that view, and that's where science is important. By talking, we can't change this view because there is an infinity. So we need evidence, and that's where the research comes in. And they said, ah, you know, and that's why paper gets rejected. Yeah, what you're saying makes sense. Give me evidence. So our struggle is can you publish this paper so that we can test the idea? We can't test the idea if the theory is not published. It's a theory, it's not a law. It could be wrong. But to say the day of light, it needs to be published. No, we can't publish it. Because there are so so many, so many different things. Because the system is infinity, it continuously goes on and on, but we don't know which direction it's going on. It's just infinity. So I it's not only a single loop like this, there are a few loops coming out of it as well. It's like um, how do I say, if I put a dot on a wall and I say Asher, how many lines can you draw from this dot? What would you say?

SPEAKER_02 54:33

I would say infinite.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

Those many systems are in place. So if these are infinite systems in place, if you can't even count them, if you can't even hold them, what are you changing? We cannot. We cannot really change the established mechanism. What we can do is to create case studies. So we get go to an organization, we create a case study organizations, and they are going through a lot of attrition rate, for example, people are leaving, people are not happy, their survey is down, and we go investigate that and we try to see what challenges exist. Is it the system, is it the culture, is it the environment, is it the performance, is it tradition, is it something else? And then we write down all together and we figure it out what's going on. And then pundits and these thought leaders come in and say, Look, this happens, this happens in my experience, this happens, and we say, Okay, let's put this in a structured way and see whether it works. And we run it in a small organization. And if it works, we try to test it in a little bigger organization, then bigger organization, then bigger organization. Then it starts getting media traction. Then it starts getting science field traction, then it starts getting researchers traction, then it starts getting government traction. Now there's something could be in flights. It starts very manual somewhere, but somebody needs to try that. So if we and that's what I said, you can't change a system by being outside a system. Just because I'm living in Australia doesn't mean I understand the Australian system. In order to understand that, what I think works, small needs to be. It's like a nuclear explosion. Once you start, it shouldn't stop. Because if it stops, it just stops, it dies there. That's why some of the movements die. They start very great. Everybody focused on it and then it dies down. So a system is is so challenging to challenge a system because we can't see, because we can't hold on. Is it the culture we need to focus on changing the system? Is it the tradition we need to focus on changing the system? What are we holding on? Where is the starting point? We really not sure. It's like somebody who doesn't know how to swim and they're like to splashing in water so that they don't drown. That's what we do. In our naive view, we call it uh hit and trial, or trial and hit, or trial and error. Because we don't understand the system, so we do trial and error. Sometimes we hit, sometimes we don't hit.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

We get we get a list of successful failures.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

Yeah, and we market them. It determines the parameters to be successful and failures. I'm pretty sure if some socioeconomic groups get one piece of bread a day, it's success for the whole family. Even they are eating less, it's success for them. While some other socioeconomic people, if they don't have big cars, if they don't have big buffet lunches, if they go bed sleeping by in single bed, they say that's such a failure. Now, is it perspective? Is it is it your own socioeconomic stuff? Is it something else? Is it is it culture, society? I don't know. But then success is determined by the environment you live in. Okay, if you go to monks, I'm pretty sure their success will not come with billion dollars in their pockets. Their success is spiritual business people. Their success is more profits that they gain. And I'm generalizing it now now, but this is just for example purposes. So success has a different definitions, descriptions, depending on who uses it and why. What is the purpose? It's not only monetary, it's also health. A healthy person with only ten thousand dollars in his bank account or her bank account, and that is sufficient, it's successful. They don't have lavish lifestyle, success. But some people have billion dollars, trillion dollars market value, and they still they are successful, but they still fail. So, coming back to your point, just because you're successful doesn't mean you're not failing. They are not opposites. As we talked about opposites, they are not opposites, they are two separate concepts. They work hand in hand. Opposite of success, failure. No, there's no, no, it's not. You are successful, but you still fail. You work on 12 projects, you fail on two projects, you're successful in ten projects, you are successful, but you also fail. Just because you're successful, people don't look at failure. But if I look at only two projects and not ten projects, you are a failure. So they're not opposites, they go hand in hand. It's and this is a system again, seeing the world in opposites. Satisfaction, dissatisfaction, right, wrong, tall, sure. They're two concepts. It's just unnecessary comparison points. They don't exist. It's it's in your head. As I said in the last podcast, I'm I'm 167 centimeters. If Asher is 180 centimeters, I'm sure. If somebody is 150 centimeters, I'm tall. We have built absurd systems in place to view ourselves in comparison to others. Doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_02 59:31

On that, we're gonna wrap. This is a good your Saturday morning, my Friday evening.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

Yeah, you're gonna time travel. I'm seeing the future. Saturday. A system of geographies.

SPEAKER_02 59:45

Time travel. So what's what's going on in the future there? What's going on in the future, Dr. Angle? What's going on in the future?

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Well, I'm sure our future is very different to the US future right now because of the weather. We are very chilly. I'm sure you will have a summer morning tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 59:57

You've been watching soccer?

SPEAKER_00 59:59

Uh I've been following, yes. And I'm waiting for seeing how the game is played now between the players three and four and one and two. I'm fascinated by some players and their capabilities and abilities, but I just enjoy a game.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

That process of enjoyment in itself is success.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

Alright, well, we meet again for the folks that are listening. As always, when we chat, me and uh the doc here chat, we get we just get the brain going. So if your brain is turning, definitely go in and subscribe and continue to share. This has been an awesome conversation, Dr. Anakin. Always good to connect with you. Appreciate your insight, your hindsight, your foresight, what you get to see in plain sight, all the sights that you bring to this conversation. I appreciate it. Any last word? Any any giveaway for the audience?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

Yeah, thank you, thank you, Asher. Just to the audience, these conversations are not meant to lead somebody in a particular direction. This is just another views. And if we are able to spend invest some time in just seeing how what merit these views could have for yourself, then I think that would be an appropriate way of doing these conversations. It isn't saying one way is right or wrong, they don't exist. What is this this is a view that we are discussing? Hope this adds value to your views, and maybe together we can develop something that helps all of us wherever we want to reach. So do write comments, do write questions. If there is any particular thing you would want to talk about, write. And Asher and I can bring that up discussion next time, and we can bring those things to you. And if we can create this cycle, I'm sure without even being together, without even knowing each other, we can create a dialogue. So you never know, we meet in the future. So thank you, Asher, for this platform and for inviting me again to your podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

All right, with that, folks, make it an utterly, utterly fantastic day.